高德思：還有一點可以直接在攀巖和工作間相互借鑒的就是訓練。訓練打結(jié)、系繩索和其他環(huán)節(jié)，甚至團隊精神也需要訓練，因為這都是與你性命攸關的。

吉姆·柯林斯：實際上，我想攀巖最經(jīng)常給我的啟示應該還有兩個。一個當然就是堅持訓練，做好準備工作，我的朋友總是笑我準備過了頭。但我覺得過頭一點也沒事兒，畢竟石頭不長眼，小心為上嘛。訓練時一定要注意到最微小的細節(jié)。當年為了慶祝我50歲生日，我們打算到約塞米蒂國家公園里去爬船長峰，這段路線要求我們在黑暗中爬很長時間，還要互相交換繩端。所以，我們?yōu)榇吮仨毧炭嗑毩暣蚪Y(jié)，打好了拆，拆了再打，無數(shù)次地反復練習，覺也沒得睡。不能出一絲差錯，因為一旦注意力不集中，就會犯錯。所以你隨時都要小心翼翼，堅持訓練。

為了充分準備，我在家弄了一個攀巖訓練房。有一天晚上，我妻子出來找我，發(fā)現(xiàn)訓練房里一片漆黑，不見人影。吉姆，你在哪兒？然后她發(fā)現(xiàn)在攀爬墻上有一盞探頭燈，原來是我關了燈，在黑暗中練習攀巖。練習，就是把更換支點、準備下降、移動等一切必須的動作在黑暗中練上無數(shù)遍。這樣等到攀巖的那天，一切就能如行云流水一般順暢。還有，團隊行動時你也需要訓練，什么時候該走，什么時候該停都有一定之規(guī)。 當然，有意思的是，攀巖過程中你仍然可以充分發(fā)揮你的創(chuàng)造力，畢竟每塊石頭都不一樣，你需要發(fā)揮創(chuàng)造力才能想到如何爬上去。

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Thomas D. Gorman: I would have thought that another directly applicable set between climbing and your work is discipline. The discipline of tying the knots, the discipline of rigging the ropes and the various other connections. But, even the discipline of teamwork, because your life depends on it.

Jim Collins: Actually, there are sort of I guess, two other things that relate to the concepts that show up a lot in the climbing. One really is the discipline and it's the discipline of, of course there's training, preparation, and my friends always laugh because I like to be over prepared, but that's ok, Because the rock can be bigger than me. The discipline to really focus on some very specific details. When we were doing the climbs in Yosemite for my 50th birthday on El Capitan, we were going to do a lot of the pitches in the dark and we were also going to switch ends of the rope. So, just the practice of tying your knot in and out, without making a single mistake over and over again, sleep deprived, it's not regimentation, because if it's mindlessly regimented, you'll make a mistake. It has to be very mindful. And mindful in the sense of constant discipline.

So in preparation, I have a rock climbing gym at home. And my wife came out one night and the lights were off and I'm out there, where's Jim? Then she noticed there's a headlamp out in the climb field and I had turned off all the lights and I'm in the climbing gym, climbing in the dark, inside. Practicing, you know, switching in and out of anchors, practicing setting up rappels, practicing doing moves, practicing everything I need to do, hundreds of times, in the dark, over and over again. So that, when the day comes, it's really like clock work. It's really like clock work, and there's discipline in the way you operate as a team. There's discipline when you don't go, when you do go. And of course, the interesting thing is, there's also an enormously creative activity Because you have to...every piece of rock is different and you may need a lot of creativity to figure out how to get up it.

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Jim Collins: Now, there's one thing that when we talked about the BHAGs,( big, hairy, audacious goals,) and climbing, if you choose really good BHAGs, and I think this is what BHAGs do. A really good BHAG has to be something that in the end you ultimately achieve. If you don't achieve it, you've let yourself down, so you don't want to just pick BHAGs for the sake of having them. On the other hand, if they're easy to achieve, they're not BHAGs. So what a BHAG does is put you right on the edge of incredible discomfort. A true BHAG is one that's achievable, but only if you have to change yourself a lot, to achieve it.

And in climbing that is if you pick a goal that is on that edge, where you actually have to go through a journey of despair. I don't know if I'll actually ever get up to this and then you finally do, and it will change you. Either your behavior, your philosophy, or you evolve inside your brain. For me personally, the hardest short climb I ever did was 25 moves in 5 years of work. And I would go through these journeys of despair and everything would be perfect. The conditions would be perfect, the temperature would be perfect, I was rested, I had the route completely wired, every single move. I'd climb perfectly and I'd still fall. And I would think, I'll never get up this climb and I would just completely despair. Well, what had to happen was I had to learn something new, which was your cumulative failure becomes like a backpack, and every failure is a rock, put into that backpack.

Pretty soon after three or four years of failing on this climb, trying your hardest, that backpack is really heavy and you're carrying these cumulative failures, cumulative despair in your pack. So, if you're carrying it when you go on your climb, you're not going to make it. So, I had to learn this whole kind of mental thing of being able to take the backpack off with all of the rocks of failure and put it on the ground and be able to then come out to climb, there are four years of cumulative failure on this climb. But, I have to wipe those away and climb at it fresh. I would have never acquired that capability had I not had to try for five years to do a route that when I finally did it, only took five minutes. That's the power of the journey of the BHAG. It's a journey.?