高德思：讓我們回到剛才提到的關于工作熱情的話題。我們尤其需要在關鍵崗位上的富有熱情的員工。您剛才將普遍的工作熱情和關鍵人選的工作熱情區分開來看待。

吉姆·柯林斯：關鍵職位。

高德思：對，關鍵職位。從衡量員工敬業度的角度來看，這揭示了哪些方面的重要性，或是相對意義上的重要性？這僅僅是一種學術層面的問題？還是說這非常關鍵，以至于我們可以認為工作熱情是卓越公司背后的核心驅動力？

Thomas D. Gorman: Just back for a moment to the question of passion.Particularly for the key positions finding the people that have got the passion. You made the distinction between everybody having the passion and the key people.

Jim Collins: Key seats.

Thomas D. Gorman: Key seats. What does that say about the importance or relative importance of regularly measuring employee engagement? Is that sort of an academic issue or is it really critical to the extent that we think passion is a critical driver in great companies?

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Jim Collins: I thought about your question on this and course the first thing I always do is go back to the data and ask myself, what's the evidence on this? And the notion of measuring employee engagement is relatively new. So, we don't find a lot of evidence in the history of dynasty eras that we studied, meaning not a lot of emphasis on measuring employee engagement. But, what I would say, is they had a very tactical sense of engagement, and part of what the leaders do, they had a very intuitive sense of when you were engaged and when you're not. Plus they would have feedback from customers and feedback from a variety of other things.

My own view is that really intensely engaged people are necessary for doing anything great. If you can measure it and you can see it going up or down, I can't see that as anything but a good thing.