4.西爾維亞?馬修斯?伯韋爾和羅伯特?魯賓

就在《財(cái)富》雜志（Fortune）與48歲的白宮預(yù)算主管西爾維?馬修斯、75歲的前財(cái)政部長羅伯特?魯賓坐而論道之時(shí)，美國離債務(wù)違約還有兩天。那是一個(gè)可怕的時(shí)刻。避免災(zāi)難的協(xié)議將于第二天出現(xiàn)，但那天早上，當(dāng)我們于艾森豪威爾辦公樓的寬敞會議室碰面時(shí)，前景仍然不明朗。伯韋爾有過這樣的經(jīng)歷。1995年，她在財(cái)政部工作，是魯賓的參謀長。當(dāng)時(shí)，面對立場類似強(qiáng)硬的眾議院共和黨人，兩人編寫了讓聯(lián)邦政府在此類危機(jī)中保持償債能力的當(dāng)代操作流程。

魯賓：我們實(shí)際上是在1992年的總統(tǒng)選舉中相識的。某人通過電話把我介紹給西爾維亞。我當(dāng)時(shí)從來沒聽說過她。我發(fā)現(xiàn)這個(gè)年輕人在與媒體打交道和預(yù)判事情方面都有極好的感覺。所以，我想我有很多東西要向西爾維亞學(xué)習(xí)。

伯韋爾：我想說，鮑伯（即魯賓）的風(fēng)格是蘇格拉底式（即通過提出問題，請對方解答，再根據(jù)對方的解答提出新的問題，從而引導(dǎo)對方得出提問者想要的結(jié)論——譯注），非常對我這個(gè)希臘裔美國人的胃口。

魯賓：我在大學(xué)里的一位教授說過，對幾乎所有問題的最佳回答都是提出另一個(gè)問題。我相信這話是對的。預(yù)算危機(jī)期間，問題不是教任何人什么東西。問題實(shí)際上就是我們共同努力的方式。西爾維亞和我本人以及其他幾位，包括我們的法律顧問，找出了從公務(wù)人員退休基金借款的方法。這個(gè)辦法讓我們有資源能在相當(dāng)長的時(shí)間內(nèi)支付美國的賬單。

伯韋爾：我們當(dāng)時(shí)正在做一件前無古人的新工作。

魯賓：它就像是四維的國際象棋。如果有必要，就是再加上兩維她也能玩。

伯韋爾：我們談話的很多內(nèi)容都涉及問答框架。

魯賓：不常和媒體打交道的人容易在別人問你問題時(shí)簡簡單單地給出一個(gè)答案。但西爾維亞說：“要充分理解這個(gè)問題，就得擁有將它放入整體框架里的辦法，讓它可以得到充分的理解。”西爾維亞特別擅長這一點(diǎn)。（采訪結(jié)束時(shí)，魯賓起身對伯韋爾說：）祝你好運(yùn)，去拯救美國吧。

4.Sylvia Mathews Burwell & Robert Rubin

The U.S. was two days from a debt default when Fortune sat down with White House budget director Sylvia Mathews Burwell, 48, and former Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin, 75. It was a scary moment. A deal to avert catastrophe would come together the next day, but that morning, as we gathered in an airy conference room in the Old Executive Office Building, the path forward was not clear. Burwell had been through this before -- she was Rubin's chief of staff at the Treasury Department in 1995. Then, facing similarly intransigent House Republicans threatening a debt default, the pair wrote the modern playbook for keeping the federal government solvent through such a crisis. --Tory Newmyer

Rubin: We actually met on the 1992 campaign. Somebody introduced me telephonically to Sylvia, who I'd never heard of. And I found here was this young person who had a tremendously good sense of how to deal with the press and see around corners. So I figured that I had a lot to learn from Sylvia.

Burwell: I would describe Bob's approach as Socratic, which is one that suits me as a Greek American.

Rubin: A professor I had in college said the best answer to almost any question is another question. And I believe that's right. During the budget crisis, it wasn't a matter of trying to teach anybody anything. It was really just the way we worked together. Sylvia and myself and a few other people, including our general counsel, figured out a way to borrow from the civil service pension funds, and that gave us the resources to continue to meet our bills for a long, long time.

Burwell: We were doing something new that hadn't been done before.

Rubin: It was sort of four-dimensional chess, and Sylvia could play the four dimensions plus another couple more if she had to.

Burwell: A lot of our conversations were about framing.

Rubin: If you weren't used to dealing with the press a lot, your tendency was, somebody would ask you a question and you'd just respond. But as Sylvia said, "If it's going to be digestible, you have to have some way of framing it that makes it digestible," and Sylvia was terrific at that. [The interview over, RUBIN stands and says to BURWELL] All right, good luck. Go save the country.